Discussion post: defining "gen."

[fiercelydreamed]

The discussion of how to define sexual and gender minorities is still going, but in the interest of keeping things moving toward the posting of actual works, I thought I'd put up the second of the definition posts. I've already gotten some questions and suggestions on this one, so the timing seems right. 

For the purposes of the community, here is the definition I'm considering:

Gen: a work that does not foreground romantic or sexual relationships and where the creator does not consider those relationships to be the point of the work.

To be clear and give you all some further food for though, by my judgment this definition does not exclude the following:

• Stories where characters are in romantic or sexual relationships. Romantic or sexual partners are part of the everyday lives of sexual and gender minorites, so it doesn't make sense to me to impose a rule that characters must be single. It's possible for a work to acknowledge and allow space for these relationships without romantic or sexual themes dominating the work. Similarly, for fanfic (which is all about transformation and interpretation), it doesn't make sense to me to have different rules for canon and non-canon relationships. 
• Stories with explicit sexual content. I would encourage all creators of work with explicit sexual content to think hard about whether you truly consider that work to be gen, and I will ask you to warn for such content so that those who wish to avoid it can do so. However, I can think of examples where a work would contain sexual content without being focused on such content, particularly if sexual scenes or references take up little space in the work itself.
• Stories with other content appropriate for mature audiences. I can imagine some people taking "gen" to mean "appropriate for all ages," but I don't intend to limit it in that way on the comm. However, as with the previous note, I'll ask creators to warn for content that is dark, violent, or that they think some readers might find disturbing or triggering. 

While I'm on the topic of warnings, and without wanting to reproduce some of the very intense arguments that have occurred on the subject elsewhere:

• For the purposes of this community, inclusion of a character who is a sexual or gender minority DOES NOT require a creator to warn for "adult content." This policy connects directly to my intention that this community will challenge certain beliefs: that it is a right to be protected from the sexual or gender minority identities of others, and that such identities are inherently threatening or always sexually expressed. 
• While I will ask creators to warn for certain kinds of content, my tentative plan is to allow creator discretion as to how specific those warnings will be. I will ask creators to specify if a work has sexual content (and probably whether the content is mild or explicit), but not what the exact nature of that content is. Similarly, I will ask creators to warn for dark, violent, or potentially triggering content, but I will leave it up to a creator's discretion whether to provide further details in the headers. I will ask all creators to be considerate of others and to warn as specifically as they are willing to do so. I will also ask those viewing works on this community to be mindful of their own limits and take responsibility for their choice to view works with potentially explicit or triggering content. 

Thoughts? Questions? Examples you want to run by me as test cases? Proposed modifications? Concerns? To repeat my disclaimer from the previous post, this definition and the proposed policies are intended to be functional and useful for this community. I'm not proposing it as a universal that everyone should accept, just a guideline that will help people develop, post, and enjoy works in this space.

I've been really gratified by how thoughtful and respectful the discussion on the comm have been so far, and particularly impressed by how every time someone has raised a question or concern, someone else has come up with a really good idea for how to address it. Thanks, everyone -- I already feel really good about what we're doing here.

Comments

[ilthit]

I am so with you about not warning for characters who are in sexual minorities. That's just silly - like saying we're obscene just for existing.

I wouldn't list a fic gen, though, if it featured in the background a relationship with no canon basis. Depends on how prominent that relationship was, though - I did list a fic gen once which merely hinted at a non-canonical relationship that happened to characters who didn't even have speaking parts in the fic. I'll of course go by what this comm defines for anything posted on this comm, but this is how I'd break it up (example fandom Son of a Witch, spoilers below):

- Fic about Liir raising his daughter = gen
- Fic about Liir and Trism, in a relationship, raising Liir's daughter = gen (canon gay relationship, left hanging in the end of the book)
- Fic about Liir and Candle, in a relationship, raising said daughter = gen (canon het relationship, left hanging in the end of the book)
- Fic about Liir and um, Mother Yackle, in a relationship, raising said daughter = not gen (non-canon pairing)
- Fic about Liir and Trism's enduring love = not gen (centered on a romantic relationship rather than changing diapers)

I guess the reason I feel a non-canon pairing, even in the background of the fic, makes it not gen is because it's so easy to make a fic about child-rearing which is actually about the enduring love of your ship. I've done it myself.

[kindkit]

I think disallowing non-canon relationships would be hugely problematic in this context, since the vast majority of characters in the vast majority of fandoms only have heterosexual relationships in canon. Not allowing non-canon relationships for this fest would mean forcing singlehood on most of our main characters. This is a gen ficathon, but it's also pro-queer, and do we really want to create a rule that will allow very few same-sex relationships, but tons of het ones, to be mentioned in our stories?

[ilthit]

Well, as I said, it's fine by me however the comm defines it, that's what I'll go by - just thought to throw in my two cents on what I consider and don't consider gen.

But what you're saying could also problematic. I'd much rather we have more stuff about canonically queer characters - who need recognition - than be flooded by popular straight characters that we like to think are queer. But as long as the fic/etc is in a way about queerness outside of the context of a romantic/sexual relationships it's still on target, I guess, as just another way to interpret the character.

[torachan]

This is normally my definition of gen, too, but for the fest I'm willing to expand my definition to include all but the last (fics entirely focused on romantic or sexual relationships).

[fiercelydreamed]

*nods* I think that the distinctions you're drawing are pretty common ones, which was part of the reason I put this post up. Someone commented to the initial post on the comm with a link to a poll they'd done on the limits of gen, where the people who replied didn't have a double standard for queer vs. het couples but did judge canon and non-canon couples differently. And I think that there is potential for someone to post a shippy work here because they're looking for a way to get it out there and still be correct by the letter of my definition, but not the spirit. I think your comment and the discussion that stemmed from it really points out the value of me supplementing this definition with a strong request to creators that they really stop to think about whether they consider a work to be fundamentally gen before posting it here.

Also, let me just say that I'm so with you in hoping that the canonical sexual and gender minorities get some stage time in this comm too!

Thanks for weighing in -- it's really helpful for me to get a variety of opinions here.

[damned_colonial]

Um, but what about a story about Fraser and RayK, in a Canadian shack, raising their daughter?

From the way you describe Liir/Mother Yackle, it sounds like you're stretching towards something that is surprising and perhaps likely to make readers go "Whuh!?" (sorry, I don't know the fandom, that's just the impression I get from your phrasing). Any surprising pairing is likely to jump out and, by its very surprisingness, take up a larger portion of mindshare in the story.

I can't honestly imagine a way of doing this where unsurprising non-canon queer relationships are OK as background, but surprising ones aren't, without having to define "surprise". And I can't imagine a way of doing this where "Fraser and RayK in a Canadian shack raising their daughter" is not on-topic.

[kindkit]

Similarly, I will ask creators to warn for dark, violent, or potentially triggering content, but I will leave it up to a creator's discretion whether to provide further details in the headers. I will ask all creators to be considerate of others and to warn as specifically as they are willing to do so.

This is fine as a policy, but could it be mentioned to writers, somehow, that specific warnings are much more helpful to readers than vague ones? If a story says, "Warning for potentially triggery content," that could mean a situation I absolutely don't want to read (rapefic) or it could mean one I have no problem reading (self-harm or domestic violence, for example). The vague warning leaves me needing to avoid, or beg a friend to screen, stories that might actually be no problem for me.

There are ways to hide warnings that are spoilers, such as the code given here by amadi.

[torachan]

The vague warning leaves me needing to avoid, or beg a friend to screen, stories that might actually be no problem for me.

...Or you could ask the author? I'm pretty sure that most authors are willing to answer questions about warnings.

[dunmurderin]

Maybe it would be a good idea to offer a link to that bit of code as a potential resource for those who might want to use it?

[fiercelydreamed]

Thanks for linking to that code. Along with basic definitions, I'm planning on doing a "guidelines for creators" and "guidelines for viewers" posts, both of which will address warnings clearly. I'll definitely remind creators that most people are triggered by only certain types of content and so really benefit from more specific warnings. I'll also suggest a variety of ways to warn while minimizing the spoiler factor (and for viewers looking for clarification on a work with uncertain content).

[quinara]

I like the gen definition - it seems the right combination of vague and specific. :)

[fiercelydreamed]

*laughs* Thanks -- that's pretty much what I'm going for here.

[landshark]

I like what you've got here, and that you're keeping the definitions pretty loose to start with.

I noticed a lot of back and forth about whether or not to include non-canon pairings in the definition of 'gen' (for the comm and in general), and I just thought I would link to the entry that kicked off this whole thing (correct me if I'm wrong here), for anyone who hasn't seen it. (Maybe this could be added to 'memories' for the comm?)

http://thingswithwings.dreamwidth.org/65866.html
[contains several other good links as well]

Anyway, back to 'Gen': I think romance/relationships have a place here. I think of gen as being non-explicit (for the most part), kind of like...a romantic comedy? As opposed to regular slash which tends to be more like... Porno channel/bodice-ripper romance novel.

Maybe that's a weird analogy. I guess I picture gen as something you don't have to tuck under the mattress when Grandma comes to visit. lol

Hope this is helpful?

[landshark]

I guess I left out that I think any romantic relationships should be secondary in a gen story. More on the comedy, less on the romance, lol.

[ciaan]

I would call a romantic comedy not-gen.

I think a lot of what makes something not-gen isn't the amount of sexual explicitness or even the presence of a romantic relationship, but the shipperness of something. So if it's mainly about "omg squee X/Y are going to get together!" or "X/Y are together" then it's het/slash/femslash/shippery. And that's not the sole criteria I would have for gen, but. (Which is basically another way of saying "not focused on a romantic or sexual relationship.")

[wickedwords]

I really do feel like you're re-defining gen here, in that whole "gen means what I mean it to mean" way, with reguard to how sexually explicit a story can be. Any explicit sexual content (as opposed to, say, nudity or implicit sexual tension, the "mature" or "you must be an adult to read this" stuff) makes a story not-gen.

Edited to try and make my objection more clear.

[trobadora]

I disagree; you may have a different definition of gen, but hers lines up perfectly with mine.

[fiercelydreamed]

I definitely agree that the definition I'm offering of gen is more inclusive than typical -- even more inclusive than my own expectations should I see a work labelled as gen. Here's my thinking: either I draw the line more rigidly and risk excluding gen works that I'm not able to imagine yet but that would fit, or I draw the line more inclusively and risk people submitting works that are more romance/sex-centered than this community is meant to include. In the end, I'd rather appeal to people's integrity and not limit the opportunities for some really creative, interesting works, while asking for clear headers to help people avoid things that'd be borderline.

As for allowing room for works with sexually explicit content, I'm proposing that because I can imagine some works I'd call gen that'd have such content -- say, for example, a coming-of-age/coming-out story where the protagonist has sexual encounters along the way but the main point of the story is the struggle to understand hir identity and tell the truth to hir mother, who ze's really close to. Would you consider that kind of story to be gen?

Thanks for weighing in -- it's helpful to talk these things out.

thoughts, possibly rambly

[mad_jaks]

Stories with explicit sexual content
I have to think hard about this one, as in my own writing I tend to say gen = NO sexual content at all. However, there is a time and place for everything, and sexual content as part of the backdrop of the wider story - for example, mention of rape in a fanfic based on a procedural show - that has very clearly not been written for purely because "ZOMG this story needs PORNS nao!" is, actually, okay with me. (Which is, I think, what you were getting at yourself?)

Which leads me to my next point:
Gen, at least as far as I am concerned, is not the same as suitable for all ages.

And finally.
it doesn't make sense to me to have different rules for canon and non-canon relationships
No, me either.

Re: thoughts, possibly rambly

[mad_jaks]

Darn it, I forgot I couldn't edit in here.

and sexual content
And by that I mean be non-explicit sexual content

Sorry.

[trobadora]

This is exactly my own definition of gen, so naturally I'm happy. :)

[fiercelydreamed]

Great! Thanks for letting me know this works for you -- I appreciate the input.

[facetofcathy]

I have to agree with this: it doesn't make sense to me to have different rules for canon and non-canon relationships.

It is the definition I use, but also, using that definition opens the door to gen RPF, something there is very little of, and open doors allow for all sorts of innovations in story-telling.

The tricky thing in my mind is, a work that does not foreground romantic or sexual relationships.

Say I have a story about a poly relationship, how they get together and determine their roles in each other's lives. It's sexually explicit and is both het and slash. Now say I want to write the sequel where they head out into the country and buy a house. They're going to have to talk about money, and legal issues and how many bedrooms, and who cuts the grass, and all those things are relationship things, but they aren't romance, and they aren't sex.

Example two: take any common slash couple, and have one of their mothers move in after her relationship with her husband ends. She's trying to figure out how to date again, her son and his partner are trying to figure out how not to live alone, and that's all relationship stuff too, and even some possible background romance, but it's not necessarily a traditional pairing focused slash story either.

I'm not sure in my own mind if I'd call either gen, by your proposed definition, or by the one that lives in my own mind. I think there is a temptation to call family life gen if it's about children but not if there are only adults in the family, and I think I may be falling prey to that myself.

Just to be clear, I'm not asking for the comm to run a line down the hanger bay so all the slash and het can go on one side, and the gen stays on the other. I'm trying to clarify my own thoughts about where the line(s) are.

[torachan]

Hmm, personally when I say romantic or sexual relationships, I am talking about something focused on sex, or about a couple getting together or breaking up, or... *flails* I don't know how to explain. XD But some examples: negotiating relationship boundaries related to sex and romantic feelings, fighting over one partner cheating, celebrating something together in a romantic way, etc.

The first story you mentioned, about buying a house, while still about negotiating stuff in a relationship, doesn't feel like it's about romance or sex, so I would say gen. Similarly, I've written a bunch of stories about parenting, one involving a gay kinky couple and one involving a poly (kinky, though it never comes up in the story) triad, and though any stories about them parenting are also going to be about the adults' relationships, I would consider them gen by this comm's definition.

As for the second story...I think that's one where it would depend how it was written. I could see it going either way.

[fiercelydreamed]

Thanks for throwing out some examples -- it helps as we're trying to chew through this.

I'd say that I can imagine either of the examples you give going either way. The first story, your sequel, could be about the process of the partners negotiating through all the logistics and strengthening their relationship, in which case I'd say it's fundamentally romantic-relationship-centered and probably doesn't fit on this comm. Or it could be a story about the deep pleasure the protagonist takes in working on the house and how ze had always wanted this kind of permanent place, and then I'd say it's gen, no problem.

The second story is also mutable. If the author focuses mainly on the couple trying to deal with the mother's presence and still conduct their relationship, it's not gen to me. But if it's about one or both members of the couple and their relationship with the mother, or about the mother's journey to understand herself as a single adult, then I'd call it gen.

Does that help clarify it at all? Would you agree or disagree with the calls I made?