Discussion post: defining "gen."

[fiercelydreamed]

The discussion of how to define sexual and gender minorities is still going, but in the interest of keeping things moving toward the posting of actual works, I thought I'd put up the second of the definition posts. I've already gotten some questions and suggestions on this one, so the timing seems right. 

For the purposes of the community, here is the definition I'm considering:

Gen: a work that does not foreground romantic or sexual relationships and where the creator does not consider those relationships to be the point of the work.

To be clear and give you all some further food for though, by my judgment this definition does not exclude the following:

• Stories where characters are in romantic or sexual relationships. Romantic or sexual partners are part of the everyday lives of sexual and gender minorites, so it doesn't make sense to me to impose a rule that characters must be single. It's possible for a work to acknowledge and allow space for these relationships without romantic or sexual themes dominating the work. Similarly, for fanfic (which is all about transformation and interpretation), it doesn't make sense to me to have different rules for canon and non-canon relationships. 
• Stories with explicit sexual content. I would encourage all creators of work with explicit sexual content to think hard about whether you truly consider that work to be gen, and I will ask you to warn for such content so that those who wish to avoid it can do so. However, I can think of examples where a work would contain sexual content without being focused on such content, particularly if sexual scenes or references take up little space in the work itself.
• Stories with other content appropriate for mature audiences. I can imagine some people taking "gen" to mean "appropriate for all ages," but I don't intend to limit it in that way on the comm. However, as with the previous note, I'll ask creators to warn for content that is dark, violent, or that they think some readers might find disturbing or triggering. 

While I'm on the topic of warnings, and without wanting to reproduce some of the very intense arguments that have occurred on the subject elsewhere:

• For the purposes of this community, inclusion of a character who is a sexual or gender minority DOES NOT require a creator to warn for "adult content." This policy connects directly to my intention that this community will challenge certain beliefs: that it is a right to be protected from the sexual or gender minority identities of others, and that such identities are inherently threatening or always sexually expressed. 
• While I will ask creators to warn for certain kinds of content, my tentative plan is to allow creator discretion as to how specific those warnings will be. I will ask creators to specify if a work has sexual content (and probably whether the content is mild or explicit), but not what the exact nature of that content is. Similarly, I will ask creators to warn for dark, violent, or potentially triggering content, but I will leave it up to a creator's discretion whether to provide further details in the headers. I will ask all creators to be considerate of others and to warn as specifically as they are willing to do so. I will also ask those viewing works on this community to be mindful of their own limits and take responsibility for their choice to view works with potentially explicit or triggering content. 

Thoughts? Questions? Examples you want to run by me as test cases? Proposed modifications? Concerns? To repeat my disclaimer from the previous post, this definition and the proposed policies are intended to be functional and useful for this community. I'm not proposing it as a universal that everyone should accept, just a guideline that will help people develop, post, and enjoy works in this space.

I've been really gratified by how thoughtful and respectful the discussion on the comm have been so far, and particularly impressed by how every time someone has raised a question or concern, someone else has come up with a really good idea for how to address it. Thanks, everyone -- I already feel really good about what we're doing here.

Comments

[torachan]

Hmm, personally when I say romantic or sexual relationships, I am talking about something focused on sex, or about a couple getting together or breaking up, or... *flails* I don't know how to explain. XD But some examples: negotiating relationship boundaries related to sex and romantic feelings, fighting over one partner cheating, celebrating something together in a romantic way, etc.

The first story you mentioned, about buying a house, while still about negotiating stuff in a relationship, doesn't feel like it's about romance or sex, so I would say gen. Similarly, I've written a bunch of stories about parenting, one involving a gay kinky couple and one involving a poly (kinky, though it never comes up in the story) triad, and though any stories about them parenting are also going to be about the adults' relationships, I would consider them gen by this comm's definition.

As for the second story...I think that's one where it would depend how it was written. I could see it going either way.

[facetofcathy]

Well nothing kills romance quicker than a house purchase, so...

The first example is not hypothetical; the original story exists. To me, if I were to write the sequel and leave out any sex scenes (unlikely), it would still be an established relationship story primarily about their relationship, and I'd call it a multi or slash + het fic.

I think a scene about how three people combine their book collections is as much a way to reveal character and to illuminate the relationship as is a scene about how they chose to have sex.

The second example really could go either way, and if the focus was on the mother, with her not actually doing more than casual dating, I think I would call that gen.

Your examples about parenting fic seem like gen to me too, but I'm not exactly able to nail down why I don't feel that way about my first example, if it's just because there is another character there not in the sexual relationship, or if it is something else.

I like that the definition for this comm is elastic, since I'm obviously not even clear in my own mind on what is and isn't gen.

[fiercelydreamed]

I like that the definition for this comm is elastic, since I'm obviously not even clear in my own mind on what is and isn't gen.

Oh good, because I can't claim I'm 100% clear on what I think either. *laughs* Mostly, I think that there are a lot of really interesting ideas for works where it matters hugely how the creator handles that idea, so setting inflexible lines seems impractical (and any kind of mandatory pre-screening of works would just be a ridiculous mess, jeez). I imagine that we'll get some works posted to the comm that don't meet everyone's personal criteria for gen, but I'm hoping that some clear requirements about warning for certain kinds of content will help people make informed choices about what they want to view. Also, I'm honestly hoping that people will encounter works they might not expect but will really love.

Thanks for helping figure this out.

[torachan]

I think a scene about how three people combine their book collections is as much a way to reveal character and to illuminate the relationship as is a scene about how they chose to have sex.

I agree, I just don't necessarily think that revealing character and illuminating the relationship is at odds with a gen label. People usually associate gen with action-adventure stuff, but character study is also a type of gen, and I think that can encompass relationships as well.

It is definitely a fuzzy line. The thing is, I don't even think in terms of het/slash/gen except when having these sorts of discussions. XD I don't put those labels on my fic (if it has a pairing, I put the pairing), and when I read, the only thing I look at is summaries, so it's really not relevant to me at all outside of meta.

But as I'm working this over, I guess for me the dividing line is more between things that are explicitly about romance and/or sex and things that are not, rather than things that are about relationships and things that are not.

[facetofcathy]

I don't even think in terms of het/slash/gen except when having these sorts of discussions.

Nor do I when writing, not until I need to post to a comm or a newsletter and the categorization issue comes up. I don't go so far as to say anything with a pairing cannot be gen, regardless of content, but I think I do tend to draw my thematic line differently than you do. Is the story primarily about the relationship of romantic/sexual or potentially romantic/sexual partners, or is it about something beyond their relationship. Very fuzzy line though.

I don't think using plot or genre holds up very well in defining gen. All kinds of fic can be gen, including character study, as you say.

I do think a parenting story, with the parents clearly in a relationship, can be gen, and I think a lot of people would agree, but I wonder how many of them would still comfortably call it gen if the parents were Sam and Dean Winchester?

[landshark]

I do think a parenting story, with the parents clearly in a relationship, can be gen, and I think a lot of people would agree, but I wonder how many of them would still comfortably call it gen if the parents were Sam and Dean Winchester?

...I've been quietly wondering about that as well :D

[facetofcathy]

There's me not being quiet again!

I think I'd call it gen, I also think trying to do it publicly--on a fic comm, or in the newsletter would be tilting at a windmill of epic scale.

[landshark]

Well, it seems to me that the way the comm is going to work that it could be done. There was a comment earlier about basically the intent of the story as opposed to the content, etc. So I think you could make the argument and post it with a very clear header/summary (IMO).

I think it would be an interesting challenge, at least lol.

I would totally read it, and I bet there are others as well :D

[fiercelydreamed]

FYI, for the purpose of this comm, I'd intend that work to be judged by the same standards as, say, a parenting fic where the parents were Willow and Tara.

Of course, this does raise its another issue: I'd intended to use a policy on header information and warnings to help keep things inclusive while allowing viewers to be deliberate about which works they wanted to view. Undoubtedly, incest is a very strong trigger for some people. Would it be fair to ask people to warn for incest (or at least use a generic "triggering material" warning)?

Clearly, I'm trying not to reinvoke the fairly brutal debates that have occurred in SPN fandom, and I don't want to marginalize any particular fandom (or subfandom) here. I'd love your opinion on whether the guidelines should directly cite incest as requiring some kind of warning, or if you think a clear policy of "please be considerate and warn for anything you suspect could be triggering" would be sufficient that creators would be clear in the headers/warning anyway.

[facetofcathy]

I am not fond of vague language that's designed to cover a specific issue without naming the issue. By which I mean, making a header policy with a clause that is designed to encompass incest, but doesn't name it, would not be my way of handling the issue.

However, there are other issues that may require a similar treatment, and it's impossible to imagine them all in advance. At the same time, I would wish to make it clear that depictions of a consensual incestuous relationship in a fic on this comm are not seen as equivalent to, or part of, other sexual minority identities (which no one is implying, but it would be good to keep that clear).

So, "If there is any other aspect of the identity of the characters that you believe some readers would want to be made aware of, please include that information clearly in your header. Things such as incest, body possession or body transformation could be considered other aspects of identity," is my off the cuff suggestion.

[fiercelydreamed]

*nods* I agree that creating rules that talk vaguely around a specific issue isn't helpful, and I'm also in agreement that incest isn't a sexual minority identity for the purposes of this comm (I think of it as a word describing an act or a relationship, not a person). Your guideline language is really good -- it's a way to side-step the debates about what is or isn't triggering (and whether labeling something triggering is a way to negatively mark that content) while still asking people to be clear and considerate in their headers. Thanks for the suggestion.

[torachan]

I would think it would be obvious from the summary or from a pairing listed in the headers. I mean, if this is going to be gen that allows characters in relationships, I assume people will still be putting Sam/Dean or John/Rodney or whatever. (You could even specify that people must do so.)

[torachan]

I think some people would definitely object, but personally I don't think incest can never be written in a gen manner.

If we're accepting non-canon pairings in the definition, then it doesn't make sense to me to limit the type of non-canon pairings. Sam and Dean makes me raise my eyebrows because I find it hard to get there from canon without a fic really showing its work (which a gen fic obviously wouldn't be doing), but I have the same feeling about antagonistic slash and het pairings when presented with a happy established-relationship fic.

[facetofcathy]

I'd have no problem calling a Sam/Dean fic gen, but I think it would go over like the proverbial lead balloon.

I've read your episode reviews of SPN, and I know we don't see the show the same way, which is why I like reading them. I'm usually fine with a stretched canon characterization if the story is good or satisfying in some way, but that's definitely a YMMV thing.

For the purposes of this comm, good summaries on fic might just be what everyone should strive for. Don't assume your labels are easily understood in the way you mean them by everybody.

[lady_ganesh]

Well, I don't know. If the story's about the relationship, IMO, it's not gen. If it's mostly about the stress of purchasing a house, then it's more gen-y, but I really think it depends on the focus of the fic. If it's a relationship fic-- no matter the gender or number of partners involved-- it's not gen to me.

[fiercelydreamed]

I think your thinking seems pretty much in line with my own -- which helps a lot, because one of the things I'm trying to avoid is setting and enforcing rules that make sense to me but seem arbitrary or inconsistent to the people posting or viewing works here.